Nobody should be persecuted BY a faith.

Media is not anymore about giving information. It probably never was. It is about influencing opinion to further the agenda of certain interests and lies are apparently an accepted tool. Lies are often disguised as surveys or even research. Nobody would believe lies if they were too obvious. Yet when a World Watch List for example by Open Doors in England gives out a ranking regarding the level of persecution of Christians in the world, and when nobody less than the British Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt releases it (in January 2019) and tweets about it, the ranking acquires respectability and credibility, even if it contains plain falsehood. From now on, people who heard about this list will “know” that the level of persecution of Christians is extremely high in India, higher than for example in Syria or Nigeria.

Now this list falls clearly under propagating falsehood in the name of an agenda. There is no other country where members of other religions are as safe as in India. Hindus always gave shelter to those who were persecuted in their homelands. Jews gratefully acknowledged that India is the one country where they were never persecuted. Syrian Christians under their leader Thomas of Cana (Thomas the Apostle did not come to India) were given refuge in the 4th century. Parsis came in the 10th century to escape the Muslim invaders in Persia. And in 1959, some 100,000 Tibetan Buddhist refugees fled over high Himalayan mountains and found shelter in India – only 12 years after the British had left India – a country that was one of the richest on earth when they seized power and one of the poorest, when they left.

Yet now the British Foreign Secretary tweeted that nobody should be persecuted for their faith and obviously endorsed the ranking of India in the “extreme level” category at number 10 out of 50 countries.

Of course, nobody should be persecuted for their faith. Yet an important issue is overlooked. What is the reason for persecution? Who is likely to persecute others for their faith?

Naturally it must be those who believe in an ideology which considers the faith of those others as wrong and unacceptable. There exist mainly three such ideologies – communism, Christianity and Islam, and all three are known for not only persecuting, but even killing dissenting voices in the millions.

Communism wants to stamp out religion as such as it considers them as a disease.

Christianity wants to obliterate all other faiths except itself, and Islam has the same goal. It considers all others as false and unacceptable to their god. Both won’t tolerate other faiths and therefore are likely to persecute them.

So the first countries on the list may indeed deserve their rank and indeed persecute Christians. North Korea due to its communism, and then right up to rank 17, all are Muslim majority countries with one exception. On rank number 10 is India with a Hindu majority.

How did India get in there? There seems to be an agenda to obfuscate and muddle the issue. Hinduism does not condemn other faiths as wrong and does not persecute others. It never has. It has the most liberal world view possible. Everyone has the right to seek his own truth, and his owns connection to the source of his being.

So why is India ranked together with countries where indeed Christians are persecuted? Surely the compilers of the list must have reason to include India, won’t they? Was there not a young American missionary killed by tribals in the Andaman Islands recently? And is this not brutal persecution?

Yes, it is true that he was killed. The young American was naïve. He knew that the Sentinelese tribe was fully cut off from civilization and hostile, and nobody was allowed to go there. Yet he went nevertheless, feeling he was called to bring the Gospel to them, as if they were in need of it. His superiors should have warned him, yet they rather encouraged a possible ‘martyrdom’.

Yet this definitely cannot be called persecution of Christians. It was a defense against an unwanted intruder by tribals, who had earlier had bad experiences under the British colonial rule. It also cannot be called persecution of Christians, when villagers occasionally chased away missionaries who had come to convert. These villagers have every right to protest against their gods being called devils and being pestered to leave their ancient tradition. Did the Christian missionaries not cross decent human behavior by not respecting others’ views, if those views are not harmful to anyone? Unfortunately, Christian missionaries are notorious for crossing decent human behavior and for putting out blatant fake news.

An example:

Swiss friends were alarmed by a forward they had got on 23. November 2018 and asked me if there was truth in it. It was in German and I translate it here in full:

SAD NEWS: Please pray! Urgent issue for prayer. Pray for the Church in India. Last night 20 churches were burnt down. And tonight more than 200 churches in the Olisabang provice are meant to be destroyed. They want to kill 200 missionaries in the next 24 hours. All Christians hide in villages… Pray for them and send this message to all Christians whom you know the world over. Pray to God that He has mercy for our brothers and sisters in India. When you receive this message, pass it on urgently to other people. Please pray for the 22 Christian missionary families who have been condemned to be executed. Please pass on this message as fast as you can, so that many will pray!!!

With love

Joyce Meyer

A Google search shows that this message is circulating since 2010 and is a hoax. Even the province doesn’t exist.

Would a persecuted religious group dare to spread such blatant, outrageous lies? Would it dare to have a detailed plan like the Joshua Project about how to convert maximum number of Hindus? So who is actually persecuting whom?

Yet instead of condemning the devious agenda of the missionaries, the world accuses India of persecuting Christians.

Why?

The west knows that they cannot bully Islamic countries. But in India, which is a high target for conversion, there are enough western oriented Indians, who will happily toe its line and falsely accuse Hindus of persecuting Christians. In this way, Hindus and India get a bad image in the eyes of the world and Christians receive support and compassion.

Mainstream media has tremendous power to shape opinions. Churches have tremendous financial and political clout. Both obviously cooperate to portray Hindus as intolerant and hateful of other religions – absolutely contrary to facts. There is a third power that wants India to get a bad image the world over, at least as bad as its own image is. It is Pakistan, which is at rank number 5 in the list.

Intriguingly, not a single European or American country is among the 50 top countries where Christians are persecuted. But was there not a shooting in a church in USA? Have Christian refugees for example in Germany not been attacked by Muslim migrants? Does this not count as persecution? And are those French or German or Spanish or English citizens, who are randomly stabbed with a knife or blown up in a terror attack, not targeted for their faith? For not being Muslim?

We need to be clear. Those who are persecuted FOR their faith, are always persecuted by members of a different faith which is rigid and dogmatic and considers those other views as wrong – so wrong that they are ready to even cheat or kill to wipe this wrong faith out. Islam is one such rigid faith, but also Christianity.

So, in a tweet, I suggested to the British foreign secretary a slight change in his comment. Instead of “Nobody should be persecuted FOR his faith” I suggested “Nobody should be persecuted BY a faith”.

Will he understand?

By Maria Wirth

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100 comments

  1. BRSaravana · · Reply

    Fresh incident happened yesterday:- One has lost count of the Hindu youths in Tamil Nadu who were murdered by the Islamist activists.
    Within days of Dalit leader Thol Thirumavalavan exhorting the people of Tamil Nadu to destroy Sanatana Dharma during his speech at Tiruchirappalli and Vijayendra Saraswati, the Sankaracharya of the Kanchi Mutt cautioning the Hindus that Sanatana Dharma was in danger, a group of Islamic extremists struck at Thirupuvanam, a village near Kumbakonam on Tuesday night by murdering a Hindu Vanniyar youth for questioning their bid to convert people to Islam.
    Even after 12 hours of the incident at Thirupuvanam, the mainstream media which include 24X7 Tamil news channels decided to ignore the gruesome murder of Ramalingam.
    It is a sorry state of hindus in their own country. The so called sickular hindus are in support of the islamic terrorist groups like the PFI. Thanks to people like Maria to voice her opinion whenever needed. we appreciate Maria. A friend in need is a friend indeed

  2. Well said, MW. It is true that Hindu India is the most tolerant country in the world. Such canards as mentioned in your article is baseless but surprisingly making rounds on electronic media. This only shows the gullibility of humans Islam and Christianity have a long history of persecution of other faiths just because the others do not follow Islam or Christianity. So, it is basically acceptance or rejection of an idea because religion is an idea. Hindus are seen as the easiest prey for conversion as they follow a religion where many gods are worshipped, though they worship the Almighty through these deities. It is easy to find fault with a particular doctrine but it is difficult to prove on the scale of knowledge and logic. Just as an example, I pose a question to the followers of monotheistic religion as to why there was/is a concept of anti-god, named Ahriman, Satan or Shaitan, or Iblis if the god they worship is considered all pure and all-powerful? Let me confabulate an answer. It is because mankind could never place wrongdoings on God they worship as they consider god to be all pure, merciful, and all-powerful, and therefore, for any misery or bad turn of events in life one places the onus on either fate and destiny or on another concept such as a power working against the munificence of the god they worship. There may be many more where one may question the veracity of a doctrine. One may debate whether a polytheist or a monotheist or for that matter, an agnostic is a better human being and can never reach a conclusion as ideas borne out of philosophical thoughts and practices are deep-rooted. In the ancient times Christians were the persecuted by Romans and after Christianity was accepted as the state religion in the Roman Empire the roles got reversed. How can humanity ever forget the bloody footprints of the spread of Islam? Such dogmatic persecution on mankind cannot be found in the religious or spiritual development and practice in India, where Buddhism and Jainism thrived together with widespread and deep-rooted Hinduism. And then some people call Hindus intolerant! It simply means they do not know what they are talking about.

  3. Vedraj Dairy · · Reply

    Thanks great way of thinking

  4. D.P.K. Pillay · · Reply

    I agree no one one should be persecuted by any faith

  5. KULDEEP CHANDRA · · Reply

    Hindus are committedto thepriciples of reverenceandcceptance of all faiths. FORCED CONVERSIONS OR CONVERSIONS BASED ON FREE BEES BY THE CHURCH HAS BEEN SOMECAUSE OF TENSION.
    TO MATCH OF MISSIONARY MODE CONVERSIONS IS BOUND TO DEVELOPED AS A REACTION.
    MANY HINDUS HAVEPICTURES/ PAINTINGSF CHRIST ANDNY TIMESHIBDUSKEEP HEM IN THEIR CHAPPLES IN TEIR RESIDENCES.

    IT IS SAD THAT A FAKE NEWS IS BEING CIRCULATED UNDER THE AUTHORITY OF BRITISH SECRETARYOF STATE WHERE INDIA IS BEING RANKED FOR SAFETY OF CHRISTIANS .

    IT IS ELECTION TIME IN INDIA AND SOME PLOTICAL MAFIAFINDIA ISORGANIZING DISSEMINATION OFA FALSE PROPOGANDA..

    THE BRITISH SHOULDKNOW THAT HINDUTVA MEANS THE ESSENCERSPIRITY OF INDIA ,,IT INDIANNESS WHICH MEANS A SECULAR INDIA WHERE ALL RELIGIONS AND FAITH HAVE DENTICAL STATUS

  6. May I please share a post that’s on similar lines? I sent it to you earlier by email but perhaps you didn’t see it.

    https://drshyamalavatsa.wordpress.com/2018/02/03/things-which-make-for-peace/

    1. Sorry, I am in Germany right now and have not yet internet on my phone, am presently on wifi in a shop.
      Please may I postpone till back in India

    2. Very good post. Thank you. I didn’t know that Joshua project was given permission in 2002, but always was wondering why there are so many types of “missionary visas”, when I filled out the form…
      The goodness is there in many followers of dogmatic religions, but the dogmas (if they are even known) are not beneficial, which needs to be pointed out.

      1. Thank you for reading. I am an irregular blogger. I reach very few people. If you think any of my posts can be helpful in your endeavour please go ahead and share with your followers.

    3. There is a reason why people are concerned about persecution of Xians in India.
      1. India is #4 in religious violence
      https://qz.com/india/959802/india-is-the-fourth-worst-country-in-the-world-for-religious-violence/
      2. India is shortlisted as one of the top in persecuting religious minorities.This is the same place for Afghanistan and Iran.
      https://www.uscirf.gov/all-countries/countries-of-particular-concern-tier-2
      3. UN has warned India about it’s persecution of Dalits. Note that India is #1 in slavery as per Global Slavery Index
      https://www.hrw.org/news/2007/03/12/india-un-finds-pervasive-abuse-against-dalits
      4. There are even tens of thousands of sex slaves in temples.
      https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bengaluru/sexual-servitude-to-the-gods/articleshow/63660465.cms
      All the above happens NOT in a monarchy or dictatorship. All this happens 50 years after independence and being declared “secular.”
      Tell me does this all sound peaceful and harmony to you by any means. If that is not enough, I can bring in more other cases. I am just curious. I am an Indian Christian myself.

      1. You, as an Indian Christian, tell me frankly, are you persecuted???
        There is an agenda behind maligning India.
        Hindus are the most tolerant lot. Just compare, but please be honest.

  7. As you have said in the article that Hindus have always been welcoming people from other faiths from hundreds of years, I have a question.
    What is the reason ?
    Say, a group of people land on a sea coast in the year 1450 A.D.(approx.) They speak different language, wear different type of cloths. Still, the king of that land allows them permission to trade in his kingdom. Later these people start acquiring knowledge about all minute details, life style & ideologies of the locals & gradually start exploiting the poor & neglected people from that kingdom & build up their influence in a few years time & become so strong that they can now challenge the native king’s supremacy. This is what happened more-or-less with a lot of medieval settlers who eventually became rulers of many kingdoms.
    I believe, that those kings & subsequently their heirs were never perceiving the foreigners as somebody who would do such an act. Basically, Indian mindset could not visualize any outsider as a threat & this belief was inherited by generations one after the other. `We are humans, so are they.’ Only this held true for Indians. Now we can infer that people living in those times were insane to think so. Actually, they never could see outsiders as danger, because they did not have much information about people, kingdoms beyond a particular territory, because they did not need it. Most of the kingdoms were self-reliant & self sufficient in resources & hence unaware of `other type’ of ideologies.
    The situation is not the same now, as information is transferred at the speed of light these days & making people aware about all sort of developments in real time.

  8. Swami Shyamendra Maharaj · · Reply

    Perhaps it is time to edit our Vedic slogan — Hindu bhavantu sukhinah Hindu santu niramayah
    ma Hindu dukha bhagbhavet instead of sarve bhavantu sukhinah etc Why so …. because without Hindu mindset people will always remain anti-universe , anti humanness .

  9. krishna k mandava · · Reply

    Gratitude Ms. Maria You nailed the point.

  10. Yes, this may have been the reason that Indians in the ancient to medieval times did not know much about happenings and changes taking place in other parts of the world because they were inward looking.

  11. Diwakar Pulisetty · · Reply

    Both Christians and Muslims have been consistently targeting hindus in India and elsewhere for conversions from hundreds of years. They are largely successful I must say. Hindus on the other hand are very generous and tolerant and to look other way with the ongoing conversions. Conversions in muslim countries are met with death sentence, no less.

    Maria, enjoy your trip to beautiful Germany. I lived in Hamburg for an year in 1989, post wars the Germans have rebuilt a stellar economy, on a cautionary note the unabated ongoing migration of muslims will in the long run going to cause huge social problems there and in rest of Europe. Muslims always want to take from non-muslims but never willingly give anything in return. (I heard an interesting piece of German law. Is it true that the German establishment collects money from its catholic citizens on behalf the church in more or less a tax form. Please explain. Thanks.)

    Surya, USA.

    1. Yes, 8 percent of the income tax is collected by the state for the Church for Catholics maybe Protestants, too.

    2. I can’t understand how much ignorance in these comment section. Do these people even know what’s happening in India?
      1. India is #4 in religious violence.
      https://qz.com/india/959802/india-is-the-fourth-worst-country-in-the-world-for-religious-violence/

      2. India ties up with Iran and Afghanistan in persecuting religious minorities.
      https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewelinaochab/2019/01/12/religious-freedom-is-on-the-decrease-in-india/#743cd579403b

      3.India is #1 in slavery and there are thousands and thousands of sex slaves in Hindu temples.
      https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bengaluru/sexual-servitude-to-the-gods/articleshow/63660465.cms

      4. Human sacrifice is still practiced in Hindu temples
      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1908706.stm

      Do I need to go on and educate you about what happened in the past? This is what Dr.B.R. Ambedkar said about your religion.
      “To put the matter in general terms, Hinduism and social union are incompatible. By its very genius Hinduism believes in social separation, which is another name for social disunity and even creates social separation. If Hindus wish to be one, they will have to discard Hinduism. They cannot be one without violating Hinduism. Hinduism is the greatest obstacle to Hindu Unity. Hinduism cannot create that longing to belong which is the basis of all social unity. On the contrary Hinduism creates an eagerness to separate.”

      Which cave are these people living in?

      1. Please visit India…

      2. I am Indian myself. Indian media is shy of reporting majority crimes.
        https://www.hudson.org/research/4575-hinduism-and-terror

      3. This is true. It’s true also for Germany…. Any explanation?

      4. What do you mean “true in Germany?” Do you find anywhere that there are “Christian” terrorist organizations? Even if there are, it is not supported in Christian beliefs.

  12. Nothing justifies forced or conversion by force. We are all human being and all are a reflection of the Almighty in his creative intent. There is no question of divisiveness in human society. But mankind has been fighting over centuries on the different names we assign to the Almighty. Almighty is an abstract thought and human efforts to capture the abstract has failed so far and is never likely to succeed. But we keep on trying and in the effort divide human societies. Religion binds people but divides societies. Some take umbrage on the social division prescribed in the Hindu scriptures little realizing that such division was essentially karmik which perverted to birth based caste divisions. Fortunately, the walls are crumpling albeit slowly but there is a determined effort to demolish the caste-based social structure in Hindu society.

    Nothing can justify hatred towards another ethnic group.

    1. None is converting anyone by force. Article 25 of the Indian constitution gives the right to propagate one’s religion. Why are Hindus ignorant of India’s secular nature and constitution? How about killing people in the name of a cow? Why are you silent about this?
      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/20/mobs-killing-muslims-india-narendra-modi-bjp

      Why is killing people not bad but you are offended by “conversions?”

      1. I do not support cow lynching nor I support conversion by force or lure. Culture of Hindu ethnicity needs to be preserved. Hindus do not believe in proselytaztion and conversion from Christianity or Islam.

      2. Noone is forcefully converting anyone. This is mere Hindu propaganda. Hinduism is not an ethnicity. It is a religion. India has achieved freedom and became secular. Are you saying people shouldn’t have the right to choose their own religion? Is that even democratic? These missionaries didn’t do anything to make India #4 in religious violence. Have we?

        https://qz.com/india/959802/india-is-the-fourth-worst-country-in-the-world-for-religious-violence/

  13. Please read ‘Nothing can justify forced conversion or conversion with lure’

  14. There is no doubt India became independent through struggle, though with non violence. But it inherited an ancient culture predominantly a Hindu culture. Every society nurses a culture, that is ethnic peculiarity. That needs to be preserved. Hindus never target others fir conversion as for a Hindu all, the whole world is a family and Hindus pray fir well being of all. As against this you find teachings such as the heathens will burn in hell, those who do not believe in the singularity of Islam are kafirs and so on. Such philosophical attitude tend to divide humanity on religious lines. Sure, each has the right to chose a religious practice but evangelists do not have the moral right to lure unsuspecting individuals to convert. One has just to listen to the sermons by mullahs and talks by overconfident evangelists critical of Hinduism for wrong reasons to realise the underpinning intent.

    1. You said Hindus teach about equality and peace. Did you forget about casteism prevalent in Hindu society? Even today, Dalits are persecuted in India in a large scale.
      https://humanists.international/2017/09/iheu-india-un-stop-fostering-hindu-extremism-persecution-dalits-intimidation-civil-society/

    2. I suggest you read your own scriptures first and how the treatment of Sudras were prescribed. Only last year, India was warned of it’s persecution of Dalits by Hindus. See below.
      https://www.hrw.org/news/2007/03/12/india-un-finds-pervasive-abuse-against-dalits

  15. No doubt caste system embedded in India is bad and needs to be eliminated as early as possible but that does not justify wrongdoings by other cultural societies. Two Hindu women in Sindh province of Pakistan have been forcibly abducted and converted and married to Muslims, that is forced conversion. I am against such acts by any society.

  16. Manoj Kumar · · Reply

    MODERN CASTE SYSTEM BRITISH CREATION : A TOOL TO DIVIDE & RULE & CONVERT : https://www.myindiamyglory.com/2018/10/28/modern-caste-system-is-british-creation-a-tool-to-divide-rule-and-convert/?

    1. These are mere conspiracy theories which has nothing to do with the reality. It is crystal clear how caste system is embedded in traditional Hindu system and their scriptures. Some quotes below.

      Vasistha Dharma Shastra 4.1-3 The four castes are distinguished by their origin and by particular sacraments. There is also the following passage of the Veda, ‘The Brâhmana was his mouth, the Kshatriya formed his arms, the Vaisya his thighs; the Sûdra was born from his feet.’ It has been declared in (the following passage of) the Veda that (a Sûdra) shall not receive the sacraments, ‘He created the Brâhmana with the Gâyatrî (metre), the Kshatriya with the Trishtubh, the Vaisya with the Gagatî, the Sûdra without any metre.’

      Narada Purana I.24.7-9 “Those castes are said to be four, viz., the Brahmans, Ksatriyas, Vaisyas and Sudras. Among these the Brahmana is the foremost. The Brahmanas, Ksatriyas and Vaisyas- these three are called Dvijas (the twice-born), because at first they are born of their mothers and later on, they are consecrated by means of sacred thread with due repetition of the Mantras (which constitute the second birth). Thus twice-born-ness is attained by these three classes. All holy rites and duties must be performed by these castes in accordance with the specific duties prescribed for their castes. By failing to perform the holy duties prescribed for one’s own caste, one is called a heretic by learned men.” Tr. G.V. Tagare

      Source:https://vedkabhed.wordpress.com/

      1. West had a very hierarchical, clear cut structure of society in separate classes or castes (Portuguese), whereas Indian civilisation compares it to a body. the head sure is very important, but so are the feet. if your foot pains, won’t you do everything to make it well?

      2. Manoj Kumar · ·

        There are numerous websites which work very hard to spread FAKE stories about Hinduism intending basically to ATTACK HINDUISM so that Hindus can easily be Converted to Christianity or Islam.

        There is not even a single word in Vedic Texts which talks on Caste.

      3. Yes, but Sudras were treated worse than animals by Hindu society. This is even corroborated in Hindu scriptures.

        Agni Purana 227.21-31 “…a Shudra using force to a Kshatriya should have his tongue cut off. A Shudra who would aspire to give moral instructions to a Brahmana, should be punished by the king…” Tr. M.N. Dutt

        Manu Smriti 8.282-3 If out of arrogance he spits (on a superior), the king shall cause both his lips to be cut off; if he urines (on him), the penis; if he breaks wind (against him), the anus. If he lays hold of the hair (of a superior), let the (king) unhesitatingly cut off his hands, likewise (if he takes him) by the feet, the beard, the neck, or the scrotum.

        Manu Smriti 8.272. If he arrogantly teaches Brahmanas their duty, the king shall cause hot oil to be poured into his mouth and into his ears.

        Manu Smriti 8.270-1 A once-born man (a Sudra), who insults a twice-born man with gross invective, shall have his tongue cut out; for he is of low origin. If he mentions the names and castes (gati) of the (twice-born) with contumely, an iron nail, ten fingers long, shall be thrust red-hot into his mouth.

        Matsya Purana 227.73-75 “A Sudra should be deprived of his tongue if he abuses violently a twice-born, if his offence be moderate; if his offence be highest, he is to be fined Uttama Sahasa. A king should be put a red, hot iron spike twelve Angulas long in the mouth of a Sudra who vilifies violently one, taking his name, caste and house. A Sudra who teaches Dharma to the twice born should also be punished by a sovereign by getting hot oil poured into his ears and mouth.” Tr. Taluqdar of Oudh, edited by B.D. Basu

      4. So what do you mean by “attack?” If people cannot criticize beliefs, then how would they know the truth? I rarely see Hindus quoting their holy scriptures, but they can quote innumerable Bible or Koran verses. If you are saying caste system was not part of Vedas, then why is it mentioned in Vedas themselves? In Indian tradition, touching with feet is even highly offensive. So connecting Sudra to a feet is deeming them “Asudha.” Adi Sankara is one of the the finest Vedic scholars and commentators and he debarred Shudras from studying or performing sacrifices. The proposition that caste system is not in Vedic period is mere modern false propaganda.

      5. Varna system is in Veda, caste is a European term. Please ask, why is the whole world after Indian caste system? Is/was there no caste system in Europe? And was it not more discriminating? You mentioned Adi Shankara. He saw his mistake when he met a Shudra in Kashi. Yet nobody speaks about European societies 1200 years ago. Why?
        Is there any other present society where the lower classes are as privileged as in India? So much so that “higher castes” agitate to be downgraded socially?
        Why this constant harping on India?

      6. What does not suite your mind becomes conspiracy. Very well, indeed. Varna system is not the same as caste. Varna is based on deeds one performs. Read the Gita 4-13, where it is said by Lord Krishana that the varna division was on the basis of Guna and Karma.

  17. Very informative article. I would also like to add that Indian contribution in the world GDP has been rated at 17 % by Jeffery D Sachs, an economist in his book “The End of Poverty”. The second point is that it was deliberate that Muslim conquerors destroyed the culture of the vanquished, and British colonizers destroyed the economy of the colonies.

  18. Sorry for some reasons my posts are not getting updated on your blog. Just to answer your question, I was born and brought up in Kerala, a relatively secular state compared to other states. I was born in the era of Bombay riots of 90s. One heinous crime I can remember from childhood was the burning of Australian missionary Graham Steines. It gained attention prominently as a foreigner was involved. As we were talking the below happened.

    http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Hindu-radicals-attack-Christians-in-West-Bengal,-badly-beating-pastor-46564.html

    This is what the UN’s report of India last year

    “In India, I am increasingly disturbed by discrimination and violence directed at minorities, including Dalits and other scheduled castes, and religious minorities such as Muslims. In some cases this injustice appears actively endorsed by local or religious officials. I am concerned that criticism of government policies is frequently met by claims that it constitutes sedition or a threat to national security. I am deeply concerned by efforts to limit critical voices through the cancellation or suspension of registration of thousands of NGOs, including groups advocating for human rights and even public health groups.”

    https://idsn.org/un-human-rights-chief-disturbed-discrimination-dalits-india/

    I am not anyway against you choosing Hinduism nor I am condemning all Hindus. But consistently sugarcoating ALL of them are tolerant is preventing from gaining attention to the plight of the poor and the destitute in the name of religion.All this is happening in a secular India.

    1. Secularism is only until others also value these principles. When the ethnicity of a community is threatened the community reacts. In any case, intolerance is visible in any society, any country, and in any religious group as evidenced by recent happenings in Pakistan, Sweden, the Netherlands, and Newzeland. Regardless of all shortcomings as pointed out Hindu society remains most tolerant and forgiving. The UN Report points out the deficits in the practice of secularism in India viewed through a prism glass. That does not mean that it is the most intolerant society in the world. The report does is not a comparative study. Hinduism allows one to worship as one feels comfortable with. Hinduism allows diverse rituals and does not bind a person in knots. Hinduism does not criticize other religions and does not insult faith and belief of other religions or sects as it considers all are children of the same Almighty, whatever one may choose to call Him by whatever name. Sanskrit scholars said this centuries ago that truth is one, the wise call it differently-Ekum Sat Viprah Bahudha Vadanti. The sectarian approach in religion contradicts humanity!

      1. May I know how the ethnicity of a community is threatened? Are you saying we shouldn’t have the freedom of speech and religion? Anyone has the right to leave or join a religion or no religion.

        Currently, India is Tier 2 with Afghanistan and Iraq in persecuting religious minorities according to the US Commission on International Religious Freedom.
        https://www.uscirf.gov/all-countries/countries-of-particular-concern-tier-2

        I have posted the ranking of India in religious violence many times. This is an area of serious concern and the government is doing nothing for it, other than supporting anti-conversion laws, which is fundamentally against the constitution.

        Also, I am not sure what you mean by “Hinduism does not insult other faiths?”

    2. Talking about poor and destitute, tell me one corner of the world where there are no poor and destitute? Reminds me of a parable; when a woman whose son had recently died went to the Buddha and prayed for the revival of her son, Buddha said to him ‘take me to a home where no one had died’! So, just targeting Hindu society and India takes nobody anywhere. If one wants to discuss social structure the study should be comparative and not unique, only then some conclusions should be drawn.

      1. No we are talking about a significant number of abuses happening within your religion. One example.

        https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bengaluru/sexual-servitude-to-the-gods/articleshow/63660465.cms

      2. You talked about Hindus being “tolerant” about other people’s beliefs. Then why can’t Hindus respect Christian missionaries freedom to propagate their religion? Freedom to propagate one’s religion is completely constitutional, despite some state’s anti-conversion laws. If Hindus are secure about their religion, then why can’t they accept criticism which is completely lawful under freedom of speech? This is simply a double standard. As a Christian, I am commanded to preach the Gospel by my God. This is completely approved by Indian constitution. So why can’t I exercise my right? Why do Hindus act like they are above the law and keep attacking the pastors?

    3. please see this video by Sufiya Pathan. about what is “common knowledge” and what are the facts…

      1. I think you all need to read my comments again. I never said anything against freedom of expression and freedom to propagate any religious group’s view. What I said was that I cannot subscribe to forced or conversion by lure. That is against the value of humanity. Islam and Christian ‘dharmgurus’ tend to convert by criticizing Hindu religion, its gods and philosophy. That is bad as it tends to subscribe to intolerance. For example, if I sermonize weak points in another religion, I am not tolerant of the other religion or its philosophy. Hindus never criticize other religions and other philosophy, and that is why they are considered tolerant. I am not talking about constitutional provisions, perhaps it may not be the gospel truth as some provisions may not be in line with the greatest constitution, that is the constitution of humanity. Finally, I would argue that such conversions etc., add to the stress in societies. Why should we allow such situations to develop? This will appeal only to those who believe in the saying “Vasudhaiv Kutumbakam” and not to those who consider the road to salvation only through their way.

      2. I am not sure why you keep saying we cannot criticize any religion. Freedom to criticize any religion is also a fundamental right.Once again, I am not supporting conversion by force or by bribe. I am not sure where that is happening in Christian community. If we don’t have a freedom to question our beliefs, then should we hold on to several flawed superstitious beliefs and abuse in any religion?

        I was brought up in Kerala, a relatively secular state. There is a growing atheist community in Kerala who criticizes all religions mercilessly.
        https://essense.club/contact/
        So by your definition, they should be repressed and put in jail?

        That’s not happening in Kerala given the secular nature of Kerala govt.

      3. There is a subtle difference between ‘criticism’ and ‘debate’!

      4. Essence club criticize religion and not just participate in debates. Anyone can criticize religion under democracy. If you are saying you shouldn’t criticize religion, then there is a problem that goes against the nature of nation.

        https://religionnews.com/2017/04/10/nonreligious-in-india-face-hostility-danger/

        If you can’t criticize anything, then what kind of a world should we live in? In response to Ms.Wirth’s question, Sadhguru once said India is the land of seekers. Then why are the seekers silenced? So why Hindu apologists are having a double standard here?

      5. There is no double standard. Debate on religion is welcome but not denigrating one’s religion by criticizing it. Read Wendy Doniger book on Hindu Religion to understand what I mean.

      6. Well, that’s not how things work in a democracy and according to the constitution. I am sure there is a line between free speech and hate speech. Christian missionaries as far as I know didn’t contribute to anything unlawful. There are several practices in religion such as Devadasi and racial discrimination that goes against the law. If none criticize anything, then there’s a problem. It is by no means acceptable to attack and harm anyone out of sentiments. There is a lawful discourse to be taken.

      7. Fresh news is that three more minor girls have been abducted from Sindh Province in Pakistan. No doubt, there is a difference between criticism and hate speech. But while cruising the intent may be, or perhaps is to convert. These minor girls will preached good of Islam and bad points in Hinduism, and arguments may not be rightly placed.

      8. Okay. Now the topic is being changed. I am not sure why no one wants to talk about the harsh realities existing in present day India within religion and instead super inflates everything as “culture” and “ethnicity.” If this is cultural,then it’s time to get rid of such cultures.

  19. The video was addressed to EJ, not to you. What media propagates as true may not be true. Media has an agenda in regard to Hindu Dharma, as it still stands in spite of the attempts to bring it down…

    1. What do you mean by Hindu Dharma? Do you personally support the caste system, the racial segregation, Devadasi, and Sati? I am just curious as I happened to saw a video about yourself saying Hinduism is the solution to humanity. Have you studied the Vedas and Manusmriti?

      1. Hindu dharma is not only the caste system and some more you mention. Please understand that Hindu dharma is one of the most ancient religions. It has given the world unparalleled philosophies. As human beings advanced on the road to modernism it distanced itself from the root of humanism. Religions developed and with the passage of time sects developed, like Catholics, protestants, Syriac Christians, etc., in Christianity, and many in Islam. Similarly, there were different sects that developed in Hinduism as well but the only difference is that there was hardly any conflict on religious doctrine whereas the history of Christianity and Islam if full of history of sectorial conflicts. Now why I say that Hinduism is closest to humanity. For this, I will recommend you read my book-‘Indians in Mirror View…’ available on amazon.in

        In the chapter ‘Religious Indians’ I have described not only the knowledge and wisdom of Hindus of ancient India but also why it was and is closest to humanity. Monotheistic religions from Zoroastrians to Islam posited their philosophy on the concept of one God. So did the Hindus in the concept of Parabrhama. The only difference was and is that the worship is through deities whereas the monotheistic religions preached against the deities. Swami Vivekananda said; we do not worship the deities but worship the Almighty through the deities. Deities are symbols which can be in any form, stone, river, sun, and moon, or for that matter any object. Initially, worship was through dots and lines, later with forms. With the passage of time, creative intellect created magnificent figures and great edifices to house it. That is all about it.

        Every religion has plus and minus points, there are many in Hinduism, many in Christianity, and many in Islam. That does not justify anyone to denigrate any particular philosophy. One must see in entirety. Overall, I think and believe Hindu Dharma to be closest to Humanism.

        We may need a separate discussion on this issue.

      2. Also, I am not well versed in Hindu history. But it is often said that Hinduism is the oldest. But being old doesn’t mean it is ALL. There were many ancient beliefs and practices. But people have forsaken it for new and better.Hinduism started in modern Pakistan. So what was the religion of the Dravidans before Hinduism? Do we have any historical data for that? Indian history is obscure. There were no serious Indian historians in ancient India. We often have to rely on foreign travelers to learn about our history. But even now, it is a matter of political monopoly. Secular historians are shunned and bullied by the administration. No-one is shy of reporting the effects of Crusades or the Inquisitions by the church. But this is not the case with Hindu history.

  20. Well, there might not have been any divisions primarily because the state controlled the religion. I cannot speak of Islam, not one by birth or by practice. Christianity divided into sects over minor theological issues. . I was brought up in Indian Orthodox church.One example is the issue of baptism. It is just a matter of research to see whether the first Christians practiced adult baptism. Hinduism might have had some concepts about God. So does that nullify it’s effects on society? The caste system can been seen in all Hindu scriptures and all major Hindu scholars such as Adi Shakara has corroborated it. Some out of MANY,

    Satapatha Brahmana 14:1:1:31 And whilst not coming into contact with Sûdras and remains of food; for this Gharma is he that shines yonder, and he is excellence, truth, and light; but woman, the Sûdra, the dog, and the black bird (the crow), are untruth: he should not look at these, lest he should mingle excellence and sin, light and darkness, truth and untruth.

    Satapatha Brahmana 3:1:1:10. Let him not commune with every one; for he who is consecrated draws nigh to the gods, and becomes one of the deities. Now the gods do not commune with every one, but only with a Brahman, or a. Râganya, or a Vaisya; for these are able to sacrifice. Should there be occasion for him to converse with a Sûdra, let him say to one of those, ‘Tell this one so and so! tell this one so and so!’ This is the rule of conduct for the consecrated in such a case.

    Kurma Purana II.16 28-29 “The following eleven defects caused by mingling of the castes are called sins of intermixture (Samkarya Dosas) viz. sharing the same bed, sharing a common seat, sitting in the same row, sharing of the same vessel, partaking of the cooked food together, presiding over the sacrifices, teaching, marriage alliance, taking of food together, studying together, and jointly presiding over the sacrifices.” Tr. G.V. Tagare

    This inequality itself is a violation of Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I barely see Hindus quoting their own scriptures, but they can quote innumerable verses from Bible or the Koran.I am not sure why this is the case.

  21. One thing I would like to point out in your writing is your claim that Apostle Thomas didn’t come to India. May I know why? I belong to the Knanaya clan under Knai Thomas. For apostle Thomas, Govt. of India recognized his arrival and issued a stamp on this basis.

    http://www.istampgallery.com/st-thomas/

    Arrival of Thomas is corroborated in the writings of Hindu scholars such as Nehru, Dr. Rajendra Prasad and Dr. S. Radhakrishnan.

    “Remember, Saint Thomas came to India when many of the countries of Europe had not yet become Christian, and so those Indians, who trace their Christianity to him have a longer history and a higher ancestry than that of Christians of many of the European countries. And it is really a matter of pride to us that it so happened.”-Glimpses of World History.

    So why is the new Hindutva government stripping us of our history and tradition? But they want to claim originality for Hinduism in India when in fact it is started in modern Pakistan. So this originality claim and Ghar Wapsi movements shoot themselves on their foots?

  22. true, there are many shortcomings in the doctrines but one should understand a religion after having devoured all the scriptures and not cherrypick from one or another. Hinduism, being one of the oldest surviving religions of the world naturally developed many scriptures, each claiming superiority over another. Religion stands on three legs-the scriptures, the rituals, and the practice. Leave aside the scriptures and let us concentrate our discussions on the practice. It is only Hinduism that seeks benevolence of Almighty for all without discriminating on the basis of religion. It does not say non-Hindus will suffer in hell, it does not say Non-Hindus are non-believers, it prays for all without any distinction. Such a philosophical approach to humanity as a whole is not found elsewhere. That is the reason I say Hinduism is nearest to humanism. When one says that heathens will burn in hell in the perpetual fire it accepts that heathens are not the children of Almighty and in that case, as a corollary, it purports that there may be another creator for the heathens. This goes against the strongly held concept of one god.

    Religion is a means to salvation, to obtain a higher evolutionary platform. Religion is not the end of all but only a means. All must see religion in this light.

    So where did Hinduism took roots if not in India? Please understand that modern-day Pakistan was a part of the Indian subcontinent till 1947.

    In the wanton burning of Taxila and Nalanda libraries, mankind may have lost ancient history, much wisdom, and knowledge!

  23. Well, that means still Hinduism started in Pakistan only. Modern India is India post 1947 and not British Raj. There is a significant geographic land beyond modern Pakistan, now India. Hindu kings have suppressed the earlier beliefs and converted the Dravidans to Hinduism.

    According to Christian doctrine, all are equal. No godmen,no upper castes or lower castes, gender superiority. What’s wrong with the doctrine of heaven and hell? We are not dividing any one based on the above concept. It’s up to God who can judge it. No one therefore is having the mentality of “Us vs. Them.” A Christian is free to mingle with any other person. It is much better than “untouchability” or “Ashudha”

    This is what Dr. Ambedkar said of Hinduism.

    “To put the matter in general terms, Hinduism and social union are incompatible. By its very genius Hinduism believes in social separation, which is another name for social disunity and even creates social separation. If Hindus wish to be one, they will have to discard Hinduism. They cannot be one without violating Hinduism. Hinduism is the greatest obstacle to Hindu Unity. Hinduism cannot create that longing to belong which is the basis of all social unity. On the contrary Hinduism creates an eagerness to separate.”

    1. Manoj Kumar · · Reply

      1. VIEWS ON CHRISTIANITY : “When I think of all the harm the Bible has done, I despair of ever writing anything to equal it.” — Oscar Wilde

      2. VIEWS ON CHRISTIANITY : “Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd and bloody religion that has ever infected the world.” — Voltaire

      3. VIEWS ON CHRISTIANITY : “Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned, [and molested]: yet we have not advanced one inch towards humanity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support error and roguery all over the earth.” — Thomas Jefferson

      1. Please be advised that I wasn’t asking anyone to adopt Christianity, but rather the freedom of religion in India and the plight of Indian Christians today.

        This brings me back to my discussion of writing secular history in India. Can we claim any Indian historical writings before the Mughals? Even present day, historians are struggling to write objective Indian history. Politics are playing a big role here. In the case of apostle Thomas, we are not even absolutely sure whether he reached India or not. Because there is simply no contemporary records corroborating the mission. All we have are some writings in Syriac from 3rd or 4th century.

        If there was any violence committed by the church has been reformed a long while back by Christians themselves. Why bother about the past now? In this context, why can’t people look at the contribution of church to the development of the society and weigh the outcomes?

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_of_Christianity_in_civilization

        Instead of doing the blame-game, why can’t people own what’s happening in the present? Caste discrimination and Devadasi is happening in large scale in India even now. Freedom of religion for the minorities is still a distant reality. This is clear from the repeated warnings to India by the UN.

      2. Yeah, we can keep on quoting people about stuffs happened more than couple of centuries back. We can play the blame game and do nothing for the present. This is like questioning a modern German for the Nazi slaughters. I have been talking about issues happening in Indian society now. Why not own it and do something? Let me remind you of UN’s latest warning to India, once again.

        “In India, I am increasingly disturbed by discrimination and violence directed at minorities, including Dalits and other scheduled castes, and religious minorities such as Muslims. In some cases this injustice appears actively endorsed by local or religious officials. I am concerned that criticism of government policies is frequently met by claims that it constitutes sedition or a threat to national security. I am deeply concerned by efforts to limit critical voices through the cancellation or suspension of registration of thousands of NGOs, including groups advocating for human rights and even public health groups.”

      3. Manoj Kumar · ·

        There is not even a single word which talks on “CASTE”.

        If you believe you have read in your version of vedas, then pls do share with reference

      4. “The Brahmana was his [God’s] mouth, of both his arms was the Rājanya made. His thighs became the Vaishya, from his feet the Shudra was produced.” [Purusha Sukta; Rigveda 10/90/12 and Yajurveda 31/11 and Atharvaveda 19/6/6]

        “For Brahman (Priesthood) he binds a Brahmana to the stake; for Kshatriya (Royalty) a Râjanya; for rearing cattle a Vaishya; for Penance a Shudra;” [Yajurveda 30/5]

        Chandogya Upanishad 5/10/7 says,

        “Those whose conduct here on earth has been good will quickly attain some good birth—birth as a brahmin, birth as a kshatriya, or birth as a vaisya. But those whose conduct here has been evil will quickly attain some evil birth—birth as a dog, birth as a pig, or birth as a chandala.”

        Not only this, we have some of the finest Vedic scholars commenting on the caste system.

        Adi Shankaracharya commenting on it writes,

        “The Sûdras are not qualified for that reason also that Smriti prohibits their hearing the Veda, their studying the Veda, and their understanding and performing Vedic matters. The prohibition of hearing the Veda is conveyed by the following passages: ‘The ears of him who hears the Veda are to be filled with (molten) lead and lac,’ and ‘For a Sûdra is (like) a cemetery, therefore (the Veda) is not to be read in the vicinity of a Sûdra.’ From this latter passage the prohibition of studying the Veda results at once; for how should he study Scripture in whose vicinity it is not even to be read? There is, moreover, an express prohibition (of the Sûdras studying the Veda). ‘His tongue is to be slit if he pronounces it; his body is to be cut through if he preserves it.’ The prohibitions of hearing and studying the Veda already imply the prohibition of the knowledge and performance of Vedic matters; there are, however, express prohibitions also, such as ‘he is not to impart knowledge to the Sûdra,’ and ‘to the twice-born belong study, sacrifice, and the bestowal of gifts.’–From those Sûdras, however, who, like Vidura and ‘the religious hunter,’ acquire knowledge in consequence of the after effects of former deeds, the fruit of their knowledge cannot be withheld, since knowledge in all cases brings about its fruit. Smriti, moreover, declares that all the four castes are qualified for acquiring the knowledge of the itihâsas and purânas; compare the passage, ‘He is to teach the four castes’ (Mahâbh.).–It remains, however, a settled point that they do not possess any such qualification with regard to the Veda.”

        Acharya Ramanuja commenting on the same Brahmasutra writes,

        “The Sûdra is specially forbidden to hear and study the Veda and to perform the things enjoined in it. ‘For a Sûdra is like a cemetery, therefore the Veda must not be read in the vicinity of a Sûdra;’ ‘Therefore the Sûdra is like a beast, unfit for sacrifices.’ And he who does not hear the Veda recited cannot learn it so as to understand and perform what the Veda enjoins. The prohibition of hearing thus implies the prohibition of understanding and whatever depends on it.”

        This not “my” version. I thought Vedas were the same for all people.

  24. Let me reiterate. I am not supporting any forced conversions. I don’t know of any incidents by missionaries regarding the accusation. This is mere propaganda by Hindu radicals to enforce anti-conversion laws. We have several instances of violence and deadly attacks on Christian pastors by Hindu radicals.

    Freedom to propagate any religion is guaranteed by Indian Constitution. This can also include criticism of one’s religion. If you are professing one religion, then you are automatically implying the rest of the religions are false. Hence to limit the freedom is mere against humanity and fundamental rights of a human.This is the sad plight of modern India, even 50 years after independence.

  25. I am thankful to Manoj Kumar for telling me sayings of these philosophers and social scientists- Oscar Wilde, Voltaire, and Thomas Jefferson (who were Christians in their own right); I was not aware.

    So, I stand vindicated that every religion has good and not good points in its scriptures and philosophy. None is perfect. If someone is trying to prove a religion perfect, or an individual perfect he or she is an ignoramus. One should try to capture the gist of religion and identify the one which is nearest to humanity. As I said, religion is a means to salvation or to reach a higher evolutionary platform and not an end by itself. Somehow, I feel when you say ‘heathens will burn in eternal fire’ or ‘non-believers are kafirs’ you are showing intolerance. It is said that each human being is born equal, but is this only for those who follow a particular religion?

    There is no doubt that in the debate about religion one should be prepared to discuss his own religion and accept its shortcomings. I have said earlier that social division based on caste in the Indian society is a baneful contribution and must go at the earliest. But that does not give anyone right to use it as an argument with the intent to convert anyone. It may interest you that the varna during Vedic period gradually deteriorated to the caste system. And, where is the proof that Dravidians were converted to Hinduism? Were they not Hindus, or followers of Sanatana Dharma?

    1. Manoj Kumar · · Reply

      Can these Criminals be allowed to form part of Human Society?
      “Goa Inquisition was most merciless and cruel’
      http://www.rediff.com/news/2005/sep/14inter1.htm /”
      “Christian Atrocities | Victims of Christianity | Catholic Church Inquisition | Crusades
      http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm /”

      1. Oh really? So tell me what solution do you propose for the Goan Inquisition happened 4 centuries back? How are you gonna punish the Portuguese who did the Inquisition? I am very curious. Is that the reason why India is competing with Syria and Iraq in communal violence to rank #4?I am sure you agree the criminals who is contributing to India’s communal violence doesn’t deserve to be paraded free and guiltless.

        I am sure people have something called common sense. Please stop diverting the topic. Did I say anything about the human sacrifice happening in Hindu temples or the Sati? We are here discussing current issues and do you really want to talk about Goan Inquisition happened centuries back? At least you are lucky that someone wrote honest history because usually, Indians never bothered to write their history before the Mughals. Even now writing Indian history is a difficult topic. So please stop bringing up issues that happened centuries ago. History can be manipulated or inflated.

      2. Yes, recently, I have seen a lady named Ms.Shefali Vaidya on Youtube talking about the Inquisition happened centuries ago. This is simply a deflection tactic by the current govt to do nothing for the country and instead want to contemplate on the past. Let these people fix the present and then we can talk about the horrors of Inquisition or of the Mughals, happened centuries ago. These people deserves no right and respect when their own history is filled with gutter.

  26. At this point, it is fair to compare the doctrines of each religion and not the followers of a religion. Christianity started peacefully in Judea by Jesus and his followers. Any violence committed in the name of “Christianity” happened after the state of Rome controlled church. Christianity operates strictly based on Bible. Why blame the religion based on actions of some who “profess” to follow faith? The writers of the Bible, from Roman empire, repeatedly contents that people be obedient to Roman authorities. I am sure most Hindus won’t accept the modern “beef lynchings” happening in India now. The bloody massacres done by Asoka or the current violence against Rohingya Muslims in Myanmar will also make any Budhist unhappy.

    Yes, the doctrine of the faith means unbelievers will go to hell and will be punished. But Christ repeatedly warned people not to judge others. I cannot say someone is going to hell. I don’t have a monopoly of their heart. But I can say I am going to heaven, since I am myself. Even the “none is perfect” is also the fundamental doctrine of Bible that “all have sinned and fell short of glory.”

    I am here not to debate whether or not my religion is superior or even a solution to humanity. It is whole another set of discussion, citing history and Scripture. When you say Hinduism is a solution to humanity, I am asking whether it also comes with the doctrines of caste system and untouchability? This is clear in the Vedic texts that a Shudra comes from the feet of gods. According to Indian tradition, touching someone with feet is highly offensive. This itself is a witness that Aryans contended themselves as superior to the dark skinned Dravidians.

    It is clear from history that Hinduism was started in Pakistan by Aryans from Iran. So how did the religion get to the tip of Kanyakumari, if not someone is converted?

  27. If caste system was not during Vedic period, then why does ancient Vedas talk about it? Vedic scholars such as Adi Shankara and Ramanuja has corroborated it.

  28. I should add that the concept of infidels is no foreign to Hinduism. This corroborated in Vedas themselves. Some verses below.

    Rig Veda 9.13.9 “May you (O love divine), the beholder of the path of enlightenment, purifying our mind and destroying the infidels who refuse to offer worship, come and stay in the prime position of the eternal sacrifice.”

    Rig Veda 7.6.3 “May the fire divine chase away those infidels, who do not perform worship and who are uncivil in speech. They are niggards, unbelievers, say no tribute to fire divine and offer no homage. The fire divine turns those godless people far away who institute no sacred ceremonies.”

    Rig Veda 9.63.5 ”Augmenting the strength of resplendent self, urging the waters and rejuvenating all noble acts and destroying the infidels.”

    Rig Veda 8.70.11 “May your friend, the cloud, hurl that infidel down from heaven who differs from us in rites and rituals, is inhuman, who does not observe fire sacrificials, and who does not show reverence to Nature’s bounties.”

    Rig Veda 8.64.1-2 “May our hymns please you; O lord of resolute will power, please display your bounty. May you drive off the infidels. May you crush with your foot the niggard churls who offer no homage. You are powerful; there is none so powerful as you are.”

    Source: http://www.sacred-texts.com/

    So you cannot just blame Christianity and Islam for their prerogative view of unbelievers.

  29. As a Keralite, I should add the contribution of Christian missionaries in the development of the society. At a time, when lower caste women didn’t have the right to cover their top, it was the Christian missionaries who played a vital role in this campaign. Christian missionaries if were intolerant, then why would they give education and healthcare to ALL. It was for the Christian missionaries that Kerala owes it to it’s literacy rates. See the articles below.

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/4408460?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

    Speaking of evangelism, most of new age Hindu charlatans such as Sadhguru, Rajiv Malhotra, OSHO, and ISKON often flew to the West and even sometimes base their headquarters in Western countries. If you claim Christian missionaries does not have the right to propogate their religion in India, why are these new age gurus flying back and forth for their missions? Shouldn’t you be restricting their evangelism as well?

  30. You sidetrack what Christianity did to the whole world. Look at the plight of native Americans, a complete change of culture in South America, and similarly in many places. In fact, Christianity and Islam vie with each other on cenversion numbers. And, those preaching and sermonising are not charlatans as you say, but knowledgable gurus. It may not matter if you do not like them as they continue to raise awareness among Hindus and others about religion and universal peace. There are many in India and many abroad. How does it matter? They are not evangelists as they do not seek to convert. Christianity seeks to convert. That is a huge difference.

  31. And, I am sure you must have heard the term ‘white man’s burden’.

  32. Your arguments are ludicrous and not to the point. You have quoted from Rgveda, I have not read, nor do I care as I said earlier and say it again that there are plus and minus points in every religion. I am not sure your translations are truthful, realizing the intent it may not be so. Let us recollect the division in societies which have existed all over the world, call it caste or creed system, means the same. Once again Varna is what has been described in the scriptures, caste has been described in Manusmriti, but so has been the Varna system. There are many examples of people from lower caste and Varna attaining great social status. So these do not justify trying to convert by force or lure. Yo also talked about Emperor Asoka, how much cruelty he demonstrated. While that may be true please understand that after the Kalinga war he eschewed violence and became a sage emperor, an unparalleled example in world history. He still governed a huge empire and Buddhism spread all over Asia absolutely peacefully. One has to grasp the gist of practicing religion, and the gist of Hindu religion is ‘sarve bhavantu sukhinah, sarve santu niramaya’ and ‘vasudhaiv kutumbakam’.

    As far as the oppression of people is concerned, historically it has taken place in every society. Christians by Romans, Jews by Christians, Romans by Christians once Christianity was adopted as the state religion in the Roman Empire, wiping out of native Americans by Christain temporal power, large scale extermination during the Bolshevik revolution and afterward, the list goes on. They all were Christians; the perpetrators; and the victims in many instances. Why it happened, how so much cruelty was perpetrated on mankind? To find an answer one needs to go back to the roots of religion and its practice.

    You have quoted from Rgveda and translated to ‘infidels’. To my understanding, it is in reference to the demons that is ‘asu’r and ‘daitya’ were not infidels, they also worshipped the Almighty and many obtained valuable boons. Hindu thought clearly mentions “asato ma sadgamay, tamaso ma jyotirgamay, mrutyorma amritgamay : lead me from falsity to truth, from darkness to light, from death to immortality. You do not find such thoughts in any other religion or religious practice.

    Can you please post the Sanskrit version of the Rgveda extracts you have quoted. Translations can be misleading.

    1. Well, it’s an indisputable fact that all the reformation in Hinduism happened during foreign rules. Christian missionaries played an important role in the reformation of modern India. This is simply undeniable. It’s sad that the contemporary popular level in India, they can only talk of Goa Inquisition and conversion “tactics” of Christian missionaries. Hinduism claims to be the oldest, but all the reformation happened in British era. So why did Hindus take it so long for their religion to be reformed?

      I think it’s best to focus on the present, than talking about the past. History can be biased and distorted. This is especially true for India as Indian history is obscure when compared to Greek, Rome or Egypt. No serious historical writings existed prior the Mughals. So it is unworthy to contemplate on the past and dwell in it, rather focus on the present.

      It is simply not feasible for me to quote those in Sanskrit here. Hindu organizations barely produce Vedas or Upanishads unlike the Koran or the Bible. It is very hard, but rather rely on translations. The translations were by Satya Prakash Saraswati. This is his profile.

      http://enacademic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/4810098

      We cannot simply assume he doesn’t know what he is talking about, considering his profile and his associations.

      1. So, now you will say that Upanishads and Puranas were written during the British Era! Great! And you voice an opinion based on translations, not the original texts. In that way, one may dub you a true charlatan, and not the knowledgable people you term ‘charlatans’.

      2. So, now you will say that Upanishads and Puranas were written during the British Era! Great! And you voice an opinion based on translations, not the original texts. In that way, one may dub you a true charlatan, and not the knowledgable people you term ‘charlatans’.

      3. I didn’t say Upanishads were written during British Era. I said all the inhumane practices in Hinduism were reformed during British rule. One such practice was Sati.

        Why should I have to give you the Sanskrit version? The translations were given by Sanskrit scholars. This is the same thing when a Muslim is encountered with verses in Koran, they just lazily brush them off by asking to give the Arabic. This is your own scholars translating the Vedas for you. Then why do you think they are unreliable? If I gave you the Sanskrit verse, why should I trust the translation given by you than an authentic scholar of Arya Samaj?

        http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rvsan/index.htm

      4. Because you are twisting facts. There is no concept of infidels in the Hindu religion like there is no concept of anti-god. A Hindu may be an atheist but still a Hindu because he nurses the gist of Hinduism. One may or may not go to a temple but still remain a Hindu and is never discriminated on the account of not praying regularly. Hinduism offers a very wide paradigm in religion. That is why it is closest to humanity. Monotheistic religions do not believe that the world is one family, nor pray for well being of all. That is because of the basic belief that anyone not practicing the monotheistic religion carries a corrupt soul and has to be purified and brought to God’s order. Such thoughts militate against the diversity in the creation. Ramakrishna Paramhans believed there will be diverse ways in religion as many as different ethnic groups.
        Do you know why there is a concept of anti-god in all monotheistic religions? Let me explain. God in the monotheistic religions has been considered all pure, all pious, benevolent and merciful. But there is human suffering, which cannot be the work of God. Therefore, there has to be a force separate from God that makes the human being suffer. And, that force is anti-god – Ahriman, Anti Christ, or Iblis. Such philosophical thoughts are not found in Hinduism as there is a deity for everything, Also there is a deep-rooted belief in own karma.
        Lastly, I know you will not agree to t what I say because there is a refractive and intolerant mind. Good luck! I am closing this debate from my side.

  33. We are mixing politics, religion and culture into one here. What does Christianity has to do with British colonialism? Christianity originated in Asia and Africa and even to India, before spreading to Western Europe. Speaking of which, what can you say about the folk religion of Dravidians when Aryans came to invade them? Wasn’t that a “destruction” of culture? How about new age converts of Hare Krishna movement? Do they forsake their Christian names to something like “ananda swamy?” Isn’t that lose of culture too?

    Before the whites came to North America, American Indians practiced cannibalism. So by your definition, they should be “AS IS” even today? Look at USA now! North America has changed for good. Why should we have to hold on to superstitious beliefs in the name of cultural preservation?

    I am remembering a quote by a well known reformer from Kerala, Sree Narayana Guru.
    “Reform, change the rules! Else those very
    Rules will be your downfall!”

    1. No one is mixing anything. Cruelty perpetrated by Christians the world over is well known. That is why some English speaking author has dubbed it a ‘white man’s burden’. Human behavior is greatly influenced by religious roots. Your arguments that Dravidians were converted by the Aryans is fantasy at the worst. Where is the proof? Is there any proof that North Americans practiced cannibalism? You have a great facility to twist facts to suit your arguments. You have not yet posted the Rgveda hymns in Sanskrit you quoted earlier.

      1. So according to your logic, any violence committed in Christian majority countries is the fault of Christianity. But then would you own the high rate of rape, murder, female infanticides, hate crimes, racism, sexism, discrimination, and what not happening in India because of Hinduism? It is also to note that so many crimes have been erased intentionally by authorities because of the high rate of corruption by the bureaucracy.

      2. I am closing this debate. I certainly assert that Hinduism is nearest to humanity. Hindu culture which stands for all without discrimination to religion is the final solution to human suffering.

    2. No one is mixing anything. Cruelty perpetrated by Christians the world over is well known. That is why some English speaking author has dubbed it a ‘white man’s burden’. Human behavior is greatly influenced by religious roots. Your arguments that Dravidians were converted by the Aryans is fantasy at the worst. Where is the proof? Is there any proof that North Americans practiced cannibalism? You have a great facility to twist facts to suit your arguments. You have not yet posted the Rgveda hymns in Sanskrit you quoted earlier.

      1. Lol, if Christians are so cruel and vile, then why is India competing with Islamic countries in religious violence? Who are contributing to the communal riots? Please explain.

        Hinduism started in Pakistan. So how come Hinduism now spread to Kanyakumari if not someone is converted? You can’t simply assume Hindus fell from the sky on India.

        Meanwhile, Hindu evangelists flew to the West and Christian majority countries, and noone is attacking them.

        Human sacrifice was also practiced in India. It is known as Aswamedha and Narabali.
        https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-39176570

      2. I do not have to go anywhere regarding Aryan invasion of India. This website from a UN organization reflects upon the origin of Sati introduced by Aryans.

        “The Aryans, upon their invasion of India ca. 1500 B.C. introduced the horrific custom of sati, ie. the burning of a woman after the death of her husband.”

        https://wunrn.com/2008/09/sati-burning-of-widows-historical-text-on-genocide-of-women-in-hinduism/

        For any questions, please contact them.

  34. Manoj Kumar · · Reply

    Meet an Ex Catholic Prof from Kerala

    Prof. PA Varghese : Ashamed of being Catholic Christian https://www.facebook.com/subramanya.pai/posts/2269630269754646?

    1. My friend, I am not giving you quotes from random people. I have given you the warning from UN to India from 2018. Tell me are you a hypocrite or not?

      “In India, I am increasingly disturbed by discrimination and violence directed at minorities, including Dalits and other scheduled castes, and religious minorities such as Muslims. In some cases this injustice appears actively endorsed by local or religious officials. I am concerned that criticism of government policies is frequently met by claims that it constitutes sedition or a threat to national security. I am deeply concerned by efforts to limit critical voices through the cancellation or suspension of registration of thousands of NGOs, including groups advocating for human rights and even public health groups.”

  35. Manoj Kumar · · Reply

    “Missionaries dig wells in India and provide water to poor Hindus, in return, they are expected to renounce their ancestors faith and convert to followers of Church.

    Its all advertised openly and funds collected for this purpose.

    Indian govt just turns a blind eye to such activities.

    Extract from one such website.

    =====
    In India, Water of Life supersedes this system, providing water and hope to the Untouchables. Through our partnership with Pastor Praveen and the Sylom Pastors League, we are able to tell them that there is one God who loves them, cares for them, and gave His life for them. In showing the love of Jesus, our Indian pastors reach villages with their own fresh water wells, where the gift of fresh water quickly opens the door to proclaim the name of Christ. In 2012, Pastor Praveen and the Sylom Pastors League baptized more than 15,000 Indians.

    https://www.givefreshwater.org/india/?”

    1. Oh you are offended by people converting, but you don’t give a finger about deadly attacks on minorities by Hindu fundamentalists and the govt. supporting those attacks?
      Why are you such a hypocrite?

      1. dear EJ, i would request you now to stop this debate with one or two persons putting India and her tradtion down. it is no longer a comment to the article and you got a lot of space to air your views.

        UN may indeed not be a reliable souce to quote. Surveys intentionally make India look worse than she is. Dharma, which makes sense is a challenge to the dogmatic religions which depend on blind belief, so attacks on HinduDharma and India come from many sides. Hindus are the least likely to attack others for their religion. Please be fair. Look at history.

        Either you don’t live in India or you have been living in circles which want to believe all the negativity which media and religious institutions unfairly put out against India.

        Have you ever wondered why India is always at the receiving end of criticism and not others who deserve it far more? Why a crime done by a HIndu is far more likely to make headlines all over the world? Terrible things do happen, but terrible things happen elsewhere, too. Apart from China, India’s population is far ahead of other countries, so naturally, there should be more crimes in absolute numbers… but in relation to the population, there are fewer.

        regards
        Maria Wirth

      2. Hi Ms.Wirth, please don’t equate anything to do with Hinduism to being Indian. Hinduism is another religion only. The traditions of Hinduism doesn’t mean all Indians are obliged to respect them. Would you, as a German, respect Nazi traditions and Hitler by the same logic?

        The media is not exaggerating anything. Often times, the media is shunned for speaking the truth. Hindus shamelessly accuse Christian missionaries for “forceful conversions” or “by lure.” Isn’t that exaggeration? Christian missionaries have done a lot of things for the development of the society historically and now. Why are you turning a blind eye towards it?

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